In this special Poetry Day episode, Lavie Olupona reads her poems and we talk about being a young writer in Ireland today, setting up the new magazine Blaithi (‘Little Flower’ in Irish) and how her Nigerian and Traveller ethnicity influences her writing.
Lavie has performed her work at Misleór, Many Tongues of Cork, and was recently part of the Good Day Cork radio documentary, Living Heritage. Last year she was an Edna O’Brien Young Writers Award winner at the Museum of Literature Ireland.
I think it’s very important that there are spaces for young people to do that and to do it in a way that’s safe for them, that they’re not feeling pressured in a way where it has to fit a certain niche. I think if it’s by young people, they feel more open to chat to that young person and be more open about it.
Thanks to the Arts Council for their funding support.
Previous eps: Noor Hindi // Helen Hutchinson
Transcript: Lavie Olupona
Bairbre Flood: Hi, how’re things? Welcome back to Wander with me Bairbre Flood and with thanks to the Arts Council for their funding support.
Welcome to this special episode for Poetry Day with poet Lavie Olupona.
Lavie Olupona is an activist and poet, studying social science at UCC. She recently set up a new literary magazine, Blaithi – which means ‘little flower’ in Irish. She’s of Nigerian and Traveller ethnicity and lives in Clonakilty, West Cork.
She’s performed her work at Misleór, Many Tongues of Cork, and was recently part of the Good Day Cork radio documentary, Living Heritage.
Last year she was an Edna O’Brien Young Writers Award winner at the Museum of Literature Ireland.
This is Lavie Olupona.
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Bairbre Flood: And for people who want to submit to it – is it mainly for young people? Are you trying to create that space, leave some space for young people?
Lavie Olupona: Originally we were just like, oh, kind of anybody. But then naturally, I think even just people we were friends with that some of us didn’t realize were really into creative things were like, oh, I wanna do this. And I think as naturally it became a space for young people. I’ve been very lucky to be part of the Edna O’Brien Bursary, which is an amazing initiative for young people.
But I think there are options there, but again, it can be quite geared to older people or more young people anyways are more likely to apply to things or be part of them if it’s run by young people.
And I think it’s very important that there are spaces for young people to do that and to do it in a way that’s safe for them, that they’re not feeling pressured in a way where it has to fit a certain niche. I think if it’s by young people, they feel more open to chat to that young person and be more open about it.
Bairbre Flood: That’s a really interesting point. Yeah. Because young people talk differently among their peers and among other young people than they do to older people.
And maybe because of the school structure and the hierarchical situation within families and stuff, that young people might not feel as free to express themselves in literary magazines or in spaces run by older people so that’s a really interesting point.
Lavie Olupona: Absolutely. For example, like even myself, I know sometimes if I’m writing a poem and I know it’s being submitted to a journal run by older people, I might be a bit more like trying to fit a certain line or be kind in a way, especially if it’s like protest poetry.
Whereas I think if it’s with a younger person or even if it’s run by an old person, but someone who gets younger. Younger people, I would be more open to be honest about what I’m sharing. And I think it’s very important that when young people are sharing their own opinions or whatever they’re feeling that there is space for them to do that.
Lavie Olupona: That they don’t feel pressure to hide what, how they truly feel. And I think for example, again, the Edna O’Brien bursary, that was done very well as you had a lot of circle sessions and you’re with other young people who are like-minded like you. And opportunities like that help a young person, particularly with writing.
And for me as well, I felt very supported. Sometimes when, again, you’re in a rural area, you could feel very alone, but if you’re with other people like you, you feel more supported.
Bairbre Flood: And was that held over a couple of weeks or was it a weekend thing – the Edna O’Brien thing?
Lavie Olupona: So it was held over the course of a week and it was sponsored by a lady called Susie Lopez who actually designed the cover for Blaithi.
So I kept in contact with her after it. And our mentor for that year was Jessica Traynor. So it was myself and 14 other writers from around Ireland, and we got to stay up in the UCD accommodation. We were doing different writing workshops, meeting different people. I got to meet Oein DeBhairduin – he’s a Traveller writer, so I was fangirling that day!
And it was an amazing opportunity. It was, I think we became so close with it, like there’s 15 of us, but to this day, we still keep in contact with WhatsApp, and it’s just so nice that we get to meet up and every year now we have a reunion because it’s from the bursary and we have a reunion during July, and we all meet up and have lunch together at the Museum of Literature Ireland. So it’s just, we feel so supported and it was an amazing opportunity.
Bairbre Flood: That’s lovely. It’s a really great opportunity. Oein DeBhairduin – his books are amazing. Such beautiful stories.
Lavie Olupona: Oh, they’re amazing. Oh, I love them. Yeah, absolutely. And they remind me of my Nana’s stories as well ’cause she shares stories – my mom is Irish Traveller – my nana will be sharing stories and it’s like reading the same things, but in a slight way that might be different depending on how you wanna tell it.
I’m sure every Traveller knows lots of songs and stories, but we all like to say our ma came up with a story or our ma had the song, even though it’s a traditional one. So it’s so cute seeing like a different twist or whatever as whenever my nana would tell a story, she’s like the hero in it.
And then from Oein’s books, there’s another perspective. I think it’s so cute though. I really love his books.
Bairbre Flood: It is true though. Every storyteller puts their own spin on things, don’t they? It’s yeah your story is your, how you see the world and how you put the spin on it. But how much does your Traveller heritage influence your writing particularly, or do you think it does or how would you say it would influence it?
Lavie Olupona: I think I first started writing more like when I was younger though. My mom would say that. I still have my first book, actually. It’s a fairy tale book. My nana kept onto it and then I have it. And I remember I used to write, it was all scribbles, but I used to write on it and pretend I was writing the story.
I wouldn’t want him to read the actual words I made into the pictures and come up with a story and then I’d join in. So I always loved storytelling and I’d say around 10 or 11 I would write poems. The most famous one I remember writing was about a homeless person because I remember seeing a homeless man and just this always really drew me in.
So I wrote that, but I always felt, when I wrote about myself, I dunno, I felt like a piece of me is missing in a way. I think being mixed race as well. When I was young, at least sometimes I felt I wasn’t. White enough to be Irish or black enough to be Nigerian because my dad’s Nigerian and my mom didn’t originally tell me too much about being Irish Traveller as she faced a lot of discrimination herself.
Lavie Olupona: But during the time I was 15 and I did the Wheel of Dreams film with eight other Traveller women and that’s when I started to learn more about my heritage. And I felt like finding a piece of myself that I didn’t realize I’d lost or was looking for along the way. And ever since then, it opened up a door for me and made me more excited to look into that – write about it.
The stories my nana would tell me weren’t just stories. They were her, they were stories of her and it was, like passing on a lineage line. And that felt really powerful to me because when I was younger it was like, oh, this sounds so cool. This person’s on a horse. Or they’re on wagons and campfires, but realized they were true stories.
They were about her life from before and. I was old enough to understand that and take that into account. I started writing about it. I started imagining if I was there, how would that feel? And it was, yeah, definitely influences me.
Bairbre Flood: Yeah. It’s unusual to have the two, those two backgrounds in Ireland.
I don’t know many people who have those influences and which gives you I, like I must have been so hard for your mom and for you in lots of ways, but also now that you’ve come through it and taken ownership of it. And have that pride in it and have that space that you created.
It gives you such an advantage, I think, and such a unique way of looking at the world.
Lavie Olupona: Thank you. Yeah, definitely. When I was much younger I was in a rural area. I was the only black girl in a class, but even that itself I think especially when you’re a young person, even, I would say it myself it’s very easy where if a certain group of people believe someone needs to be bullied, everyone joins in because it’s easier to bully someone else than allow yourself to be bullied.
At least that was the culture when I was in my first secondary school as well. And as I was very clearly looking for myself and how I wanted to identify myself in terms of my heritage, I think. In a way people could see that. People could see that insecurity I had. So what? Because I didn’t have the confidence in myself.
It was very easy to knock what I had. So I was young. I definitely faced a lot of bullying because of that. And like even I have my hair down today, like I was young. I wouldn’t be, we tied back, I begged my mom, straightened it. I would try to look like the other girls in any way I could. Because I was always trying to emulate what was considered the beauty standard at the time.
Lavie Olupona: So I think definitely in a weird way, like during lockdown, I think that’s when I started to gain my confidence because I started to be on like social media more, and I started to see people who looked like me and I started trying to emulate them. But then in a strange way, it was like I was hiding away my Irish heritage and trying to be or black to fit a certain stereotype because in my first secondary school, it was like I didn’t look white, so I couldn’t, I could never fit that stereotype.
It was either be the black stereotype or just bully was how I felt at least. So going back then, it was like another person, I was hiding behind this face of who I thought I was, even though I knew I was constantly searching for my true self and my true self is someone who loves going into a charity shop, wearing random stuff, loves to have their hair dyed, loves to laugh with their friends, but I was definitely lonely at that time. And then going to my new secondary school in Clonakilty, I think that was when everything fell into place for me and that’s when I was with the movie.
I was learning more about myself and. I became more aware of my identity and I wasn’t afraid of anymore. It was, and also in a way, it’s just a part of who I was. I didn’t have to sum up all of me. It’s just a part of me. And I became more interested in myself learning more about my Nigerian culture, not just what I saw online, learning more of my dad’s stories and mom’s stories, and understanding that while there’s beautiful, happy moments, there’s sad moments, and they tie in together and that’s what make all of us who we are.
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Lavie Olupona: This is one my nana really loves as I wrote this one after she told me about it. I wrote this one after she told me a story of when she was much younger and she was with my great-grandmother and she was wrapped up in a shawl and they were down by the campfire and she was telling me about the starry sky.
But what I took more notice of was my nana’s body language while talking about it. And she just looked so happy and so animated and then it was like she had that like starry look in her eyes as well. And then she told me about how she loves those memories, but she always felt sad to share them because of the discrimination she faced too.
Lavie Olupona: So this one is called ‘Tell Them What You Know’. And I wrote this because I want to always cherish my Nana’s stories. And they’re not only stories, again, they’re just her memories and also how she will still carry them. They won’t be forgotten. So I can read that one if you’d like?
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Tell Them What You Know.
We were lost then found our words shattered to the ground.
We were led, then forgotten brother to sister, left to the bottom of a sea.
Now the waves swirl and crash our songs and cries lost to the wind.
Our tales were whispered around
amber flames, our wagons hidden
beneath the foliage of trees.
Yet now I dare you dared them to allow us to stay hidden.
Tell them what you know.
Tell them we are still standing.
Tell them we are still breathing.
We are still here.
We shall never be forgotten.
Our battle cries to go unheard.
We will be remembered.
Our souls stay true.
The candles will light, are departed, still near?
Tell them we shall never know fear,
tell them our stories will not end.
They are only beginning.
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Bairbre Flood: What’s one of your favorite things about Traveller culture? If you were to describe, say to somebody not from Ireland and you were, describing what Traveller culture is – or something that you particularly love about it what would it be?
Lavie Olupona: For me, I think the sense of community and kinship. And recently I was featured in a book called Kin published by Salmon Press Poetry. And I think that book in itself shows the beauty of kinship because there’s over 50 contributors from women from Roma and Traveller cultures. And the poems and artwork are just beautiful.
And I think in the Travelling community. Just a strong emphasis on the women in the community and how women are the bearers of life, that women help pull the family together. And I think this sisterhood and friendship that’s there, it’s just beautiful. Like when Nana would tell me stories of people sharing clothes, of food together, baking together, having fun, and I think that’s really beautiful.
This one is called ‘our Further mo star’, and I wrote this one actually in fifth year. So I think it was just when I was taking in everything from my old school and I had a very strong image in my head of I dunno. People around me just have this image of being the circle of women and being with me and a lot of flower imagery.
Lavie Olupona: So that’s what inspired this.
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Do you not ask for me to be silent? I shall keep rising.
And for that, keep fighting for my voice.
Echoes and beams with the words of my ancestors and of me.
Fair voice are my words, etching into my soul, allowing it to be free.
I have carried their line and stories carved
like the inky stamp of a tattoo on my skin,
flowing through my veins,
spread out as branches,
like a living, breathing thing.
We have paved pots,
overgrown by the burdenous,
sprouting weeds of hatred,
like a poison spreading throughout this flower bed.
But now let our words blossom.
Let them bloom and flourish to take hold.
And among the glittering stars
that burn bright and shimmer
with our wishes and of their spirits above.
Guiding the way.
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Bairbre Flood: Do you have any advice for young people who are writing or who are trying to find their voice or maybe feel that older people don’t listen or that the culture doesn’t listen?
Do you have anything that you feel you could pass on to other young people?
Lavie Olupona: I know young people probably hear this one a lot, but genuinely don’t give up.
I know they probably hear that every single day from their mentors, their loved ones, whoever’s around them, and they’re thinking, oh I, I’m overwhelmed. I can’t do such a thing. I’ve absolutely been there, and I know you’ve probably heard that too, that everyone’s been there, but genuinely, I think I’ve been very lucky. I dunno, maybe there’s something about me, but I’ve been very lucky. I always get like older women trying to mind me in a motherly way. So I’ve been very lucky to have amazing mentors and teachers as well that I keep in contact today. Like the sixth class teacher, I still keep in contact with her.
Her name’s Vicki Shehan and I’ve been very lucky where I’ve had amazing mentors who have believed in me in times that I didn’t believe in myself. And it’s not easy at all to. Get back your confidence when it’s been knocked from you. And I absolutely understand that. But please don’t give up. And even myself, like even I have dealt with mental health issues, lack of confidence and depression, anxiety because of the bullying.
Lavie Olupona: And one thing that always sticks to me from that teacher in particular is. One day you will believe in yourself. And I promise that day’s coming soon.
Absolutely don’t feel afraid to share how you’re feeling in whatever way that might be. It might be through writing, through music, through art, though for me it’s usually creative outlets. Maybe you’re a sports person, that’s how you display it, or maybe you’re not any of those hobbies at all.
Maybe your way is, writing it down or talking it out to someone, or even playing a video game if that’s how you want to relax or de-stress. Do whatever you need to do for yourself and don’t be afraid to share how you are because there are people that will listen to you. I absolutely promise.
Sometimes you do have to look for those people. They’re willing to help. It’s not easy to emit the fact that you need help, but don’t be afraid to because someone’s always listening for you.
Lavie Olupona: I know for myself I was very indecisive when it came to the CEO and for Leaving Cert and my mom was a single parent and I was very unaware of what supports are out there for college and probably for anyone who’s in a similar position there’s amazing support schemes there. There’s the Here scheme. There’s an 1916 bursary.
So if you’re thinking of going to third level, I do think, oh, I don’t know how I’m going to do it. I need support. It might be academically anything. There are supports there and they’re there for a reason. That’s to help people. Like you or like me that need that extra support.
Don’t feel that you can’t apply for these things or don’t ever feel like you don’t belong because that’s not true.
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Bairbre Flood:
A massive thanks to Lavie Olupona for talking to me and for sharing her beautiful poetry with us. Keep an eye out for the magazine, Blaithi, at /blaithiofficial
And you can find out more about Lavie’s work also from her instagram – @scriobh.si
Thanks so much for listening to this special Poetry Day episode – part of Poetry Ireland’s celebrations today. Have a look on their website for all the different events happening today – poetryireland.ie
Thanks to the Arts Council for their funding support, from me Bairbre Flood, bye for now!
